RS2 Replacement Battery Charge Profile

Hi, the battery in my RS2 died recently.
I contacted the local reseller, who informed me that replacement batteries aren’t sold.
They said they would work with me to try to find a used battery, and in the meantime, I figured out that I could upgrade the battery to 2x the capacity with better cells.

So I did.

Of course, these new cells have a different voltage profile (SoC voltage curve).

So, my question is: after charging/discharging a couple of times, the internal SoC LED logic isn’t adapting to this new battery pack, is there any way I can modify the SoC logic to improve the LED indicators?

The battery works perfectly, and lasts nearly 48 hours, but the LED’s are inaccurate, given the different voltage profile.

If the charge controller doesn’t have a learning ability (like most mobile phones) for SoC, is there any possible way I can ‘tune’ it via firmware somehow?

These old indicators were also very helpful for this, when the LED’s don’t reflect the new pack:

Thanks

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Hi @geohawk,

We don’t recommend changing the battery in our receivers, so I can hardly help modify the LED indications.

If there’s an issue with the device, it’s usually hard to say right away what’s causing it, but we’re always here to investigate and try to find a solution. So, in general, please feel free to reach out to us before proceeding with any steps. We’re happy to help.

Yes, if the battery worked for more the a couple of years, I’d not touch it.
In fact, it did die, was the cause, and therefore wishful thinking doesn’t carry the day :wink:

I too worked for a manufacturer, and we advocated the same principles.
I too understand that theory isn’t always practice.

The founders of Emlid are fantastic. Why are the employees so daft?

This is the second interaction I’ve had where there’s this lecturing tone in your responses.

As if I have no clue how the internal systems in your system work…
I’m beginning to reconsider my appreciation of the Emlid brand after this one as well.

I didn’t ask you to troubleshoot the problem.
I did that. I am 9000% sure it’s the battery pack.
I replaced it, and everything works perfectly again.

No worries, I didn’t expect you would change the firmware to accommodated 3rd party battery packs, but I just thought I’d ask, as it is a perfectly reasonable question, and not an impossible firmware to make. In fact, doing it right would have made the SoC logic even better for all systems…

But no worries Kornel, I fixed it myself and will live with the inaccurate LED SoC indicators.

Also, I am not really sure I’ll buy another Emlid after this.
The last RS3 I bought will probably be my last.

Thanks

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No manufacturer in their right mind is going to advise you how to mess up their firmware, and particularly on a precision product. I’m gob smacked you even asked. And as a bonus you even received a polite reply and an offer for help.

And in the first instance you were offered a perfectly sensible and no-brainer solution…an OEM, compatible, calibrated & working, battery. Why on earth didn’t you accept it?

Regardless, none of the above justifies your offensive response which owes an apology and retraction.

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Can’t decide if you are a reseller or just in love with the brand :slight_smile:

“mess up their firmware” - clearly you don’t understand how these things work.
Have you ever messed with SoC and similar code for handling voltage levels of packs? Your reply tells me that you probably haven’t…

Second, it’s pretty clear you don’t understand batteries, either. Pull apart a pack and you’ll see the cells directly, which enables bench testing.

I can appreciate that you like Emlid, which is great.

The response was terse at best, arrogant at worst.

Not supporting batteries, and expecting users to simply choke on a hardware failure after 2 years is absurd.

Of course replacement batteries will be an issue.
They always are, even if it’s 4-6 years down the line.

By this initial response, it’s obvious that Emlid does not plan to support replacement batteries when they all start failing (or simply won’t hold sufficient charge).

That typically happens around 600-800 charges, which is only about 3-4 years of typical field use.

If you don’t care about spending $2800 every time a $200 internal component fails, then I’m happy you’re happy :slight_smile:

Having been on the manufacturing side, I have a much better understanding of what is possible, and why.

If a Mfg’r doesn’t want to support their equipment, and respond like this to an intelligent/educated user, it doesn’t bode well for the future.

Thus, my comment.

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Clearly no-one else here has any qualifications or experience :roll_eyes:

You still didn’t answer the question why you made such a technically poor decision?

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Hi @geohawk,

I agree that this is not an experience you want to have while working with the device. It would upset me, too. Still, I want to ask everyone to stay respectful in the discussion. It’ll help keep the Forum a comfortable space for everyone to share their experiences and ideas.

If there are any issues with charging Reach devices, we take them very seriously. The industrial-grade batteries inside the receivers are made to be long-lasting and withstand a few thousand recharging cycles. If any issues occur, we can solve them remotely in most cases. Therefore, the 600-800 charges you mentioned sound concerning. However, once a battery has been replaced, it becomes impossible to pinpoint what happened to the previous one and take further action.

The note about the causes can be helpful for others. Even if the symptoms appear to be similar, the reason can differ. So, we recommend anyone who faces issues keeping the unit as it is and contacting us here or at support@emlid.com for the investigation. Sorry that it caused a misunderstanding.

We thoroughly prepare and test every new firmware to ensure optimal performance. If anything is changed in the firmware or hardware, it can become challenging to predict how Reach will perform or troubleshoot issues. For this reason, we do not support modifications to the components or custom firmware versions.

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Absolutely fantastic reply @kseniia.suzdaltseva. I really appreciate your full response, courteous demeanor and factual answer.

I contacted my local reseller for support, as the equipment failed on a vital project and I had very little time to resolve the issue.

They walked me through some troubleshooting steps - and at the end, concluded that the issue was most likely due to a failing/failed battery.

The GNSS performance started to degrade, RTK accuracy became erratic and results were no longer reliable.
There was no clear or obvious reason why the instrument began to fail.
I spent several sleepless nights testing all facets and potential sources of error before contacting the local reseller.

As I have plenty of experience, I opened the unit up and performed a field repair, which solved all of the issues.

Thereafter, I searched for a replacement battery and found potential solutions which would last longer than 24 hours. I was willing to make this upgrade, as I often need 24hr+ observations/bases and not having to haul an external battery around would be outstanding.

In my view, the system had already failed, the warranty was void and therefore, I could risk doing some ‘experimenting’.

Of course, under normal circumstances, I would be delighted to follow typical corporate protocols - and gladly so!

In this case, there was an emergency (professionaly-speaking) and drastic measures were needed to complete things expediently.

I regret that I couldn’t help to support the ongoing development and improvements at Emlid, as I know how valuable such rare failures can be!

If only this had occurred under easier circumstances.

Thank you once again, for your absolutely professional reply.
Your demeanor perfectly exemplifies the founders and others I’ve dealt with in support at Emlid.

My last two experiences were quite poor (from a professionalism standpoint) which made me start to question my choices.

Your response is stellar.
Thank you and very best.

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Your response had several technical assumptions, which clearly conveyed your ignorance .

The opinionated and pointed nature of your messaging is merely expectation and frustration…

I don’t care if you know my background, experience or knowledge. It’s irrelevant to me, as I wasn’t talking to you.

How many systems have you worked on?
What is your experience with lithium cells, controllers, conditioning, maintenance and testing?

Did you instantly recognize SoC? Or did you google it (or llm chat for it)?

You may not like my tone, and that’s fine. But trying to correct me on a subject matter on which you are not an expert, and are not sure or aware if I am, is a poor decision…

Better to ask questions before admonishing, if you’re not sure yourself.

Now, to inform you: programming the SoC to actual capacity is perfectly normal for most firmwares.
It requires a little bit more nuance to program this in, but the net effect is that the LED’s always reflect the actual SoC.
By programming a fixed curve or LUT, the LED programming will slowly become less accurate over time.
Typically, what can occur, is that your system never fully indicates ‘full charge’ as that voltage cannot be reached…

The worse outcome, is that full charge is indicated, but quickly lost… e.g. the SoC goes from 100% to 70% in 20 minutes, but then takes another 12 hours to go from 70% to 10%.
This asymmetric results is due to the non-linear SoC profiles inherent to lithium technologies .
The final reason, is that not all cells are created equal. They’re extremely similar, but differences do exist, and they’re small enough that 5 LED’s (20% increments) for state easily make those subtle differences ambiguous.

LiFePO4 (which is one of the safest chemistries available), has a pretty typical curve. Not all cells are equal, though, so having different cells results in different curves.

Now, let’s talk about the advantages of a hard-wired (programmed LUT or curve function):

There are never random errors due to odd charge cycles or charging/discharging errors. Thus, edge cases are eliminated.
There’s less probability of a bug being programmed into the firmware, as it’s a “set and forget” type of development, which is great for stability and reliability.
It’s easier to program, so cheaper.

Now, let’s talk about an adaptive SoC estimation routine:
Most modern devices employ the adaptive algorithm. The reason they do this, is as mentioned: subtle manufacturing differences will not impact the reported SoC, as batteries degrade (they all do), the SoC will reflect the actual current capacity of the battery, and thus the reported charge state will be accurate to real capacity, not original capacity.
Also, if there are changes to the hardware design, an adaptive system will not be adversely impacted, as a few charge cycles will cause the LED indicators to incrementally improve.

It’s harder to maintain, as it’s not always a ‘set and forget’ type of implentation, more edge cases are encountered and different logics have different benefits and drawbacks, which requires some testing and evaluation, which is not easy in a startup (which Emlid was for some several years).

There are a lot more details we could delve into, but I wanted to give you the benefit of learning, instead of simply chastising you.

My request to find out if an adaptive SoC was possible isn’t a technically poor question, and my decision to build a custom pack would only be technically poor, if I was ignorant, which I’m not.

I’ve worked with lithium for quite some time, and was at a research lab where we built a 4kWh system out of a number of banks and series of fault-redundent cells.

Very best.

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If you understood discharge curves and the indicators were important you should have anticipated it.

You have given yourself at least 4 problems:

  1. The indicator isn’t working correctly.

  2. Mass
    a. You didn’t want to haul around an extra battery, yet you have added the majority of that extra mass permanently into the device. So you are always carrying it around regardless of whether you want a long observation or not.
    b. Worse, that mass is now always at the top of the pole and increasing your moment of inertia. Might not seem much but it’s incremental and handling fatigue is a real issue that accrues during the day. It would also add to instability on remote vehicle - which isn’t being used for a 24-hour base.

  3. You may still have an existing hardware issue in the device itself but have now circumvented any opportunity to resolve it.

  4. Uncertainty of longer-term reliability
    a. You don’t know how these batteries are going to perform in this particular device over the long term. It could be worse, regardless of the battery base spec or history.
    b. And it’s not – yet – known if you may have otherwise compromised the integrity of the device by doing this, either electrically, thermally or structurally. Or all of the above. And your sample size is only one so it’s impossible to predict.

You’ve now had a third offer of help from Emlid, the sensible option would be to accept it.

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lol, you’re just trying too hard Wombo.

Well, as a qualified electronics technician and with 30+ years experience in product support engineering with a global tier 1 leading edge technology product provider, yes sadly there are times when some things need to be called out.

And yes, in answer your questions the experience includes power subsystems, batteries, machine code & firmware programming…and a whole lot more.

You may want to revisit your posts above and rethink your approach. Offensive personal attacks are not welcome, and particularly not when they are clearly based only on grossly incorrect personal opinions. Emlid has already asked for respect, I think you owe them and everyone else here an apology.

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Glad you are ‘calling me out’.

Since you’ve conveyed your credentials, I’ll give merit to your response and reply in kind.

  1. This was an expected and understood potential consequence. Doubling battery life ensures the system will operate for 24 hours under all circumstances, alleviating the reliance on a SoC indicator.

  2. You don’t know the difference in cells, so this is an assumption. Actually, this is why I responded with ‘lol’ in my previous reply.
    Why would you prefer an external battery over a slight mass increase in the watertight housing? Running external cables and the logistics of external power is such a higher influence on incidence rate that it’s a clear advantage.

lol, “handling fatigue”. My guy, I hauled around GNSS when it weighed as much as a small child. This is a reply for a child…

  1. You’re assuming I’m incompetent at determining the source of error. Thanks Wombo, glad you’re so supportive :wink:

  2. The system failed.
    Please do continue talking about ‘long-term reliability’ though… as if it has any merit on the reality that the system already failed and if I weren’t a competent engineer, I would have had to pay a ridiculous amount to have some other engineer take it apart and replace a battery.
    b. - again, you besmirch my engineering competence. You don’t know, that’s true. :slight_smile: You also don’t know what I know, what I’ve modeled and how I’ve modeled it.

Not sure why you’re so identified in this case, and feel the need to try to mama hen over my initial post, but I’ll go toe-to-toe with you nonetheless.

You’re not superior.
Perhaps we’re equals. Perhaps.

Your condescending posts indicate that you’re prone to arrogance and likely affiliated with Emlid, which would influence your emotional response to my sharp criticisms.

Your assumption of my ignorance is the real oversight here.

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popcorn

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